From dhenriques@earthlink.net Sat Sep 8 02:08:09 2001 Path: cygnus.com!enews.sgi.com!news-peer-west.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!look.ca!newsfeed1.earthlink.net!newsfeed.earthlink.net!newsmaster1.prod.itd.earthlink.net!newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Reply-To: "Dudley Henriques" From: "Dudley Henriques" Newsgroups: rec.aviation.piloting,rec.aviation.student References: <9n7afk$g2u$1@news.tamu.edu> <6k9gptk1i9i27tc9coob0fapdtlg4p57lj@4ax.com> Subject: Re: 1-g roll - part II Lines: 94 Organization: International Fighter Pilots Fellowship X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Message-ID: Date: Fri, 07 Sep 2001 04:07:55 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 63.214.205.221 X-Complaints-To: abuse@earthlink.net X-Trace: newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net 999835675 63.214.205.221 (Thu, 06 Sep 2001 21:07:55 PDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 06 Sep 2001 21:07:55 PDT X-Received-Date: Thu, 06 Sep 2001 21:05:06 PDT (newsmaster1.prod.itd.earthlink.net) Xref: cygnus.com rec.aviation.piloting:203171 rec.aviation.student:189239 "Jim Smolen" wrote in message news:6k9gptk1i9i27tc9coob0fapdtlg4p57lj@4ax.com... > rmoore16@tampabay.rr.com (Bob Moore) wrote: > > > "Alex Ly" wrote: > > > >>Thanks for everyone who responded to my 1-g roll question. > > > >How did the term "1g roll" ever get started? For Pete's sake, > >Straight-and-Level is "1g" flight! > >> > > GETTING UP ON THE SOAPBOX > > I, for one, would like to expunge this whole concept of a "1g roll" > from aviation...it simply doesn't exist. However, it has a life of > it's own, partially because it's somehow never defined. > > There are essentially 4 types of rolls in aerobatics. I realize that > some of the nomenclature I will be using may be different from those > used by others (such as the military community). However, these are > ones generally employed in the competition aerobatics community. These > are also the ones that Dudley seems to use, so there can be continuity > on this newgroup. > > None of the 4 rolls can be *completely* flown at 1 g. Two of them have > segments that can be flown at 1 g and are best described as "positive > g" (NOT "1g") maneuvers. > > 1) Aileron Roll - Pull to attitude above horizon (>1g), unload stick, > roll allowing nose to drop on its own (g can vary, but easily done at > 1 g), pull up from nose down attitude at completion (>1g). > > 2) Barrel Roll - Combination of loop and roll, very well described > here earlier by Dudley. Entry and exit always require >1g. Roll plus > loop segment most easily done at >1g. Can be done at 1 g, if finessed. > > The above are the only possible candidates for that fabled "1 g roll" > and they don't really qualify completely. > > 3) Slow roll - The object is to maintain altitude during the roll. > Requires hefty top rudder on knife edge and more push than the novice > dreams of when inverted. This is never 1g. > > 4) Snap roll - An autorotation initiated at an airspeed higher than > the 1 g stall speed (if from level flight). Again, this is never a 1 g > maneuver. > > BTW, only the latter two are done in competition. I personally use > the first two as introductions to aerobatics for passengers or novice > pilots. After the first couple of lessons, it's straight to slow rolls > and extensive inverted flight. > > Jim Excellent post! I would only add a point of interest from the military standpoint that as pilots transition into very fast high performance airplanes like the T38 for example, the roll rates are so high that aileron rolls begin to take on a new meaning. You can fly the 38 in aerobatics all day long without ever taking your feet off the floor. At .9 mach, you can lay a T38 over on it's back with hard aileron and catch it there with just a hair of forward stick for a perfect half roll to inverted.[ but you've got to be quick!!!!!! :-) I agree with Jim that acro students should treat aileron rolls as intro fun for the first ten minutes, then leave them behind and begin slow roll training. Barrel rolls are also fun, but of no use to pilots interested in competition. Even in professional air show demonstration flying, I never used aileron rolls. Most demonstration pilots flying precision acro won't use barrel rolls during a demo. I used them in the Mustang, but never in the Pitts. Point of note about aileron rolls! Many.....many pilots have been killed trying to perform an aileron roll after a buzz job. They make a pass at high speed, then pull and without setting up, initiate an aileron roll. Because they are not using top rudder and forward stick past knife edge to inverted, the roll begins to find it's own arc on the longitudinal axis of the airplane. As decaying airspeed couples with drag, the inside rudder they used to initiate the roll begins to pull the nose down past the first knife edge. This widens the natural arc of the roll. Even if the inside rudder is released at this point, the damage has already been done. Considering a light aircraft with the roll rate of a Citabria, or even a Decathlon, the resulting dishout can be, and often is fatal! Just a friendly reminder for any students out there who have suddenly acquired an unexplainable itch since reading all this stuff we've been writing lately about aerobatics!!!! -- :-))) Dudley A. Henriques International Fighter Pilots Fellowship Commercial Pilot/CFI/Retired