জুন 11 14:02:23 Well I can জুন 11 14:02:42 But it will be an unedited paste from the time you say ##BEGIN## till you ##END## জুন 11 14:02:43 hi জুন 11 14:02:53 sm|CPU: So, actually why don't you log it too জুন 11 14:02:57 sm|CPU: Fine জুন 11 14:03:01 pritisd: Hi জুন 11 14:03:06 gora: Floor জুন 11 14:03:09 gora: Floor is yours জুন 11 14:03:44 OK, I will start off by saying that we have pretty much stagnated for the last 2 years as a team, brilliant individual work aside. জুন 11 14:04:15 We have not much of an active community, no goals, and no plan of getting there, জুন 11 14:04:42 Things are changing in that it is now possible to bring money into FOSS development from many sources. জুন 11 14:04:46 We have had a document which karunakar had taken the time to circulate around for signatures etc জুন 11 14:05:01 The question is not the money, but a structure to properly use it. জুন 11 14:05:16 A structure that also puts in measurable goals জুন 11 14:05:37 sm|CPU: One sec. I would like to discuss what we should focus on now: (a) Forming a society, (b) Putiing together an organisational structure, or both. জুন 11 14:05:48 gora: sure জুন 11 14:06:08 How is [a] different from [b] ? জুন 11 14:06:28 In my opinion, the structure is more important. At least at the moment, Sarai can act as a front, though I recognise the value of long-term independence. জুন 11 14:06:58 sm|CPU: (a) is the legal body, (b) the actual structure, with specific commitments from people. জুন 11 14:07:16 gora: Can [b] exist without [a] ? জুন 11 14:07:26 Or is [a] a pre requisite for [b] ? জুন 11 14:07:38 I will stop now. Please comment on working on which of (a), or (b) are desirable, leaving aside details of each, জুন 11 14:08:01 sm|CPU: In my opinion, no. In any case, someone is going to fund us only if we have a proven track record. জুন 11 14:08:12 * sm|CPU nods জুন 11 14:08:29 But funding would be facilitated if [a] is in place ? জুন 11 14:09:11 funding can happen at any stage জুন 11 14:09:22 Umm let me rephrase it জুন 11 14:09:24 sm|CPU: Yes, but if you ask me, I have little faith that we can use even small amounts of money with the present set-up. জুন 11 14:09:29 in order to receive the funds you need a legal entity জুন 11 14:09:36 If there is a [a] a legal entity in place - that helps funding - right ? জুন 11 14:09:44 gora: Yes coming to that bit জুন 11 14:09:47 which is why structure is more important first জুন 11 14:10:06 So, a structure should have measurable goals / objectives জুন 11 14:10:25 sm|CPU: In the interim, Sarai can fill in. I think that it is more important to prove to ourselves, and others, that we can work together, and meet deadlines. জুন 11 14:10:38 sm|CPU: Yes. Care to elaborate on what these might be? জুন 11 14:10:41 measureable goals should be setup by the sturctured body of indlinux জুন 11 14:10:56 gora: Actually I was about to ask - what was the objectives in the earlier document ... জুন 11 14:11:06 earlier document? জুন 11 14:11:07 sm|CPU: read the document জুন 11 14:11:08 BigBeard: Yes, in terms of legalese, but we need to define them for ourselves. জুন 11 14:11:21 http://www.indlinux.org/wiki/index.php/IndLinuxSociety জুন 11 14:11:25 thank you জুন 11 14:11:29 thanks karunakar জুন 11 14:11:32 sm|CPU: Which one? The one sent to TDIL, or the recent one circulated by karunakar জুন 11 14:11:46 gora: I never did know that there were 2 :) জুন 11 14:11:55 hi all জুন 11 14:12:29 * sm|CPU quickly scans through the URL given by karunakar জুন 11 14:12:34 before all the more talkative take over..i have few things to say.. জুন 11 14:12:42 sm|CPU: Well, the other one was more in terms of actual work, rather than this broad one (which is appropriate for a society) জুন 11 14:12:50 hello folks. জুন 11 14:13:01 gora: Is the other document online too ? জুন 11 14:13:07 1) as wrt URL, there is some paper work ready to submit a registration for a national level society named 'IndLinux' জুন 11 14:13:09 who can join society? জুন 11 14:13:13 the current doc is just that an MoU for a society, it needs to be broad জুন 11 14:13:18 i have a couple of questions wrt IndLinux জুন 11 14:13:30 2) need 3 more papers (hint: gora) and we are ready to put in an application জুন 11 14:13:39 Please, one at a time. Let karunakar speak. জুন 11 14:13:47 gora, yes, am listening জুন 11 14:14:08 3) Initiall 10K, with another 5-10K would be forming the intial corpus to cover expenses in registration. জুন 11 14:14:31 4) there are 12 signatories as of now (for the purposes of registration). জুন 11 14:15:22 5) anyone can be a member (provided interested in persuing the objectives/moa) জুন 11 14:15:45 6) If you donate 2K or more you become lifetime member জুন 11 14:17:25 now for more sticky parts.. while this is not a condition but being someone who has been assocaited with Indlinux project for 7yrs.. would like to see the following, if the name 'IndLinux' is to be used. জুন 11 14:18:51 a) IndLinux derives out of the project ( www.indlinux.org ), any body/society formed with its name should be in line with its objectives. জুন 11 14:19:44 while not being limited to it, but still should not deviate from the orginal objectives (of having a localized *linux desktop stack) জুন 11 14:22:44 karunakar: Done? জুন 11 14:23:08 b) For an initial period 2yr - the project still be the base of actvities of the organization জুন 11 14:23:48 c) Decisions/discussions be carried out on list (indlinux-group). জুন 11 14:24:51 hmm জুন 11 14:24:58 hi জুন 11 14:25:10 heylo! জুন 11 14:25:14 hi জুন 11 14:25:15 OldMonk: Hi. We are waiting for karunakar to finish. জুন 11 14:25:20 * pamri_BOM is now known as pamri জুন 11 14:25:53 gora, how abt changing the Topic itself? জুন 11 14:26:25 d) Preferably to avoid too much organizational headaches, keep the focus more on work to do, than on how it should be run, or to say lets start the work, resources will follow. জুন 11 14:26:41 hmmm জুন 11 14:27:55 e) Proposals, applications for funding etc, be in the initial outlined on regular basis, but getting something done should not be tied too much to getting XYZ funds. জুন 11 14:28:55 f) No elections for 2yrs! all posts made by nominations followed by a default vote. জুন 11 14:29:04 g)thats it. জুন 11 14:29:13 OK, one sec. please. জুন 11 14:29:24 Please ask to comment, and do it one at a time. জুন 11 14:29:41 h) omg জুন 11 14:29:49 Anyone, to talk specifically about Karunakar's points? জুন 11 14:30:02 karunakar: how does (e) work? জুন 11 14:30:40 and (d) too জুন 11 14:30:53 er, i mean, how does (f) work? জুন 11 14:31:08 what's a default vote? জুন 11 14:32:03 ramkrsna: Please. Let karunakar respond to one person at a time. You will get your chance. জুন 11 14:32:43 karunakar: Hello? জুন 11 14:33:37 ramkrsna: to take ur Q.. (d) if something could be done (even with alternate resources), it should be still done (unless its financial), but not subject to the requirement of the resource. জুন 11 14:34:49 ramkrsna: if i could take the example of the server, the server was put as a precondition to do work (when it was not so the case), having a server is an enhancement, but not precondition. work should start &go on , when server comes , things shift to it.. জুন 11 14:36:53 karunakar: sounds fair enough জুন 11 14:37:01 now how about (f), what's a default vote? জুন 11 14:37:04 OldMonk: (e) the work model should be such that, while having funds may accelerate some xyz activity, but there should still be a workplan, which could go without it জুন 11 14:37:33 I *strongly* disagree with (f) জুন 11 14:38:16 OldMonk: (e) kind of to say, while we cannot pay a salary, we could still pay provide for food. জুন 11 14:38:47 gora: 2 years sounds ok to me জুন 11 14:39:14 i'd recommend that even after 2 years only people who have been members for a year or more should be allowed to vote জুন 11 14:39:28 so that take-overs are precluded as far as possible জুন 11 14:39:58 allowed to vote and stand for office only after being a member for 1 year জুন 11 14:40:04 OldMonk, gora: (f) the idea here is while the initial structure should be static in the roles, so that ppl will hav enough to prove their abilities &take it a dedicated way.. জুন 11 14:40:04 the other alternative (which we've discussed ad nauseum in ILUGD) is to restrict membership somehow, and that's not a good idea IMO জুন 11 14:40:18 BigBeard: fair enough জুন 11 14:40:25 any voting rules should be consistent with the laws related to society formation. জুন 11 14:41:12 btw, am i supposed to produce 10K for the society? জুন 11 14:41:15 HereBeDragon: voting rules can be formed by the Indlinux society itself জুন 11 14:41:16 karunakar et al: Hmm, I see what you are saying, but still don't like it. জুন 11 14:41:21 BigBeard, OldMonk, gora: well thats what the fear is.. organizational politics should not be taking over the organization.. as in who should or shouldnt vote, or who is member or not..who is takes xyz role..etc জুন 11 14:42:20 karunakar: have you given the names of the initial founders? জুন 11 14:42:21 BigBeard: sure. All I want to say is, since voting's a sensitive matter, it may be good to double check to ensure voting rules are in line with the society's act (or other applicable rulebook). জুন 11 14:42:33 karunakar: a 2 yr fixed governing body is okay, it gives the society a stable start জুন 11 14:42:44 & that is to say the taking up of posts would be more on the ability to work/contribute to the organization & its objectives.. less on votes. জুন 11 14:42:52 HereBeDragon: i believe we have a fair aount of latitude when forming the society, however IANAL জুন 11 14:43:08 karunakar: Well, this is a long discussion, and we have had the same go-around in ILUG-D. I think that if anybody has the enthusiasm to manage a real takeover, we have not been active enough. Some rules for discouraging takeovers are OK. জুন 11 14:43:46 karunakar: Again, disagree. How does it matter how much they have worked in the past. I am more interested in people working at present. জুন 11 14:44:38 * gora has changed the topic to: IndLinux Society formation discussion || Brand New Debian-IN wiki (It is ikiwiki), contribute: http://debian-in.alioth.debian.org/ || Sarai FLOSS fellowships: proposal submission deadline: 25th June. See Sarai PRC mailing list, or enquire at floss@sarai.net জুন 11 14:45:01 gora: how about if we read that ``shown active commitment to the goals of the society in the past''? জুন 11 14:45:36 OK, let us go ahead. These details can be thrashed out later. জুন 11 14:46:09 ANy more comments on Karunakar's points: IndLinux society, formation, and bylaws জুন 11 14:46:13 er, may as well thrash them out now, since everyone's here জুন 11 14:46:41 i'm not clear where the corpus (10K + 10K) comes from জুন 11 14:46:44 whoa OldMonk you ain't on #l-i ? জুন 11 14:46:50 soumyadip: no, why? জুন 11 14:47:11 it think it would be better put rather this way for for organization roles (as defined later), there be a profile of requirements for each role, he/she who deems fit to take it can apply or be given those roles. জুন 11 14:47:16 OldMonk: /me finds that strange :) জুন 11 14:47:20 OldMonk: One suggestion was that ILUG-Delhi chips in a bit. Can probably get money from Sarai, too. জুন 11 14:47:27 point (c) - decisions should be by the governing body, but certainly shared with and discussed on the mailing lists. getting a mailing list to decide on a crucial matter can be a nightmare জুন 11 14:47:30 soumyadip: Please. No side conversations here. জুন 11 14:47:44 I assume minutes of the society formation discussion will be put up somewhere জুন 11 14:47:56 OldMonk: we have collection of 10K (contributed by 5ppl), 10K more has been promised.., rest upto other if they want to contribute. জুন 11 14:48:04 karunakar: ok, fine জুন 11 14:48:09 gora: ack জুন 11 14:48:15 soumyadip: Yes, sm|CPU will do it. Now, please STFU. জুন 11 14:48:16 gora: umm, i don't know if we can use ilugd funds for this জুন 11 14:48:19 karunakar: then that implies an oversight committee which has the power to reject or accept applications based on its perception of whether the applicants are qualified. জুন 11 14:48:21 karunakar: we need a body to contribute to! জুন 11 14:48:32 OldMonk: Fine. Something to be discussed. জুন 11 14:48:40 BigBeard: dont worry.. indlinux-group list is still small জুন 11 14:48:42 BigBeard: send cash to Raj Mathur, IndLinux, BB/3G DDA Flats, etc... জুন 11 14:48:44 karunakar: so, imho, the more democratic the rules, the better. জুন 11 14:48:54 HereBeDragon: Yes, that is what I hate. Forming an oligarchy. জুন 11 14:49:29 gora: yes, if that is removed and the subjectiveness in 'who has contributed', the rest will be easy to manage. জুন 11 14:49:30 karunakar: i'm not to happy with that either জুন 11 14:49:35 membership should be open জুন 11 14:50:07 OldMonk: i didnt say contributing is a req. to membership.. জুন 11 14:50:12 ah, ok জুন 11 14:50:50 gora, karunakar: we're in the same position ILUGD is in -- how to permit democracy without leaving oneself wide open to take-overs by interested groups জুন 11 14:50:58 karunakar, can companies/ NGo's contribute to the membership , say like a corporate member ? জুন 11 14:51:07 I think the primary point of membership be the interest & active role of the person, in contributing to the objectives in some way. জুন 11 14:51:11 i don't see any generally-acceptable solution to that problem জুন 11 14:51:27 one way to do it would be to allow members to be voted in জুন 11 14:51:55 OldMonk: Yes, and I thought that the resolution was that one could not really prevent it, without also restricting openness. I am in favour of the latter. জুন 11 14:51:55 with the governing body having the power to induct new members as special cases (e.g. if abdul kalam decides to join or something) জুন 11 14:52:15 OldMonk: pardon my ignorance, but who'll vote the members in ? জুন 11 14:52:18 now that he's going to need a job? :P জুন 11 14:52:21 the other members জুন 11 14:52:31 question, stupid maybe, but exactly what does `member' mean in this current discussion? জুন 11 14:52:34 soumyadip: the other members will vote new members in জুন 11 14:52:43 floyd_n_milan: A member of the IndLinux society জুন 11 14:52:43 floyd_n_milan: registered member of the society জুন 11 14:52:52 OldMonk: ah !! জুন 11 14:53:05 question জুন 11 14:53:06 OldMonk: and who'll be bootstrapping the membership ? জুন 11 14:53:34 what is society exactly? governing body or the whole project? জুন 11 14:53:50 floyd_n_milan: a society registered under the indian society's act জুন 11 14:54:01 i.e. a formal body জুন 11 14:54:03 hmmm জুন 11 14:54:09 if i may chip in? জুন 11 14:54:16 soumyadip: the initial list of founders is already complete জুন 11 14:54:27 floyd_n_milan, http://www.indlinux.org/wiki/index.php/IndLinuxSociety জুন 11 14:54:36 OldMonk: ok goody জুন 11 14:54:57 karunakar: also, not too happy with the lifetime membership জুন 11 14:55:08 floyd_n_milan, contribution are always welcome ;-) জুন 11 14:55:15 ramkrsna, yes, read that, thanks, just clearing up জুন 11 14:55:22 hmm জুন 11 14:55:30 if the person isn't interested enough to renew his/her membership each year, s/he doesn't need to be a member জুন 11 14:55:47 so can someone be a part of the project, through the mailing list maybe, and still not be a member? জুন 11 14:56:03 OldMonk: +1, membership should be renewed জুন 11 14:56:06 Can we agree that everyone is OK with the idea of forming a society, with the rules to be worked out in a public discussion, and move on. জুন 11 14:56:17 * ramkrsna is OK জুন 11 14:56:22 We are diverting into disassociated side talk. জুন 11 14:56:37 gora: ok with the idea? i guess we are only few steps to registration, its inevetiable.. জুন 11 14:56:39 gora: why not have the discussion now? জুন 11 14:56:57 because we need some fixes before the final constitution is written জুন 11 14:57:03 and submitted to the registrar জুন 11 14:57:05 kart_: Yes জুন 11 14:57:11 karunakar: Yes. জুন 11 14:57:31 floyd_n_milan: yes.. thats why i want the project to be the primary... the organization should not over grow it. জুন 11 14:57:49 so IMO we should thrash out the important points (that require changes to the constitution) right now, since once we take it to a mailing list it'll mean another lag of at least a month জুন 11 14:57:52 OldMonk: Like I said in the beginning, a society is all very well and good, but serves no purpose without a real organisational structure. জুন 11 14:57:57 uh, before we go into the rules of the society, can anyone please summarise what decisions have been taken till now ? জুন 11 14:58:07 WHich is what I would really like to discuss. জুন 11 14:58:16 gora: go ahead then জুন 11 14:58:22 gora: so outline ur ideas on a structure. জুন 11 14:58:46 Let us finish with the society, if there are issues with the main points. জুন 11 14:58:47 gora, it will be help full if we discuss it topic wise, membership, governace,.... জুন 11 14:59:03 ramkrsna, ++ জুন 11 14:59:13 soumyadip: No decisions. See http://pastebin.ca/558199 for an early summary জুন 11 14:59:38 gora: thanks a ton !!! জুন 11 14:59:49 ramkrsna: OK, go ahead then. Let us start with membership. জুন 11 14:59:56 ramkrsna goes first... জুন 11 15:00:05 ++membership++ জুন 11 15:00:15 1. who is a member ? জুন 11 15:00:23 2. role of a member ? জুন 11 15:00:35 before we proceed with this জুন 11 15:00:38 can i ask a question? জুন 11 15:00:53 a `top-level' question; im still not perfectly clear জুন 11 15:01:20 OldMonk, gora: my issue is that Indic work be the primary thing.. organizational issues be secondary. once a decision on the organizaion is taken, then work be the primary thing জুন 11 15:01:25 floyd_n_milan: Well, let ramkrsna finished. জুন 11 15:01:31 ok জুন 11 15:01:48 karunakar: fine, i'm ok with going ahead with that then জুন 11 15:02:04 if you want to leave the technical discussions for later, ok জুন 11 15:02:50 gora, member is the one whos aligned with the organizational goals, which was discussed in the intial draft of the society জুন 11 15:03:03 & I hate the concept of going around with a begging bowl!.. so the organization have means to raise funds on own..(by some activities - merchandising, training etc) জুন 11 15:03:35 gora, now my question do we have 2 kinds of members, like the FSF, participating members and the Board memebers জুন 11 15:03:55 anybody who contributes to the project is automatically a member জুন 11 15:04:38 is that fine? stop me if I'm wrong জুন 11 15:04:39 ramkrsna: not in a society, you can't have that জুন 11 15:04:45 ramkrsna: Contributes in what way? জুন 11 15:04:54 ramkrsna: you need formal membership জুন 11 15:04:58 ramkrsna: Anyone who wishes to be a member is a member. জুন 11 15:05:14 anything, project wise, code wise, PR wise জুন 11 15:05:19 okey জুন 11 15:05:31 ramkrsna: Who decides if the contribution is worthwhile. জুন 11 15:05:33 correction: anyone who wishes to be AND does whetever is required to join the society is a member জুন 11 15:06:03 requirements could include paying money, producing documents, being voted in, etc. জুন 11 15:06:12 gora, OldMonk so should all the members, have to pay a certain fee to be a member, required by the society ? জুন 11 15:06:14 but a society can NOT have automatic members জুন 11 15:06:34 ramkrsna: no necessarily, but it does have to maintain a formal membership list জুন 11 15:06:42 ramkrsna: Yes on the money. Reasonable amount. জুন 11 15:06:51 okey, sounds fine জুন 11 15:07:06 all i'm saying is, there cannot be anything like an ``automatic membership'' in a formal society জুন 11 15:07:53 OldMonk, ++ জুন 11 15:08:07 agreed জুন 11 15:08:41 ramkrsna: OK, so can we move on to the role. জুন 11 15:08:47 any other question on "becoming a member" ?! জুন 11 15:08:50 can i make a suggestion? জুন 11 15:08:57 I have to wind up by 4pm at the absolute latest. জুন 11 15:09:00 floyd_n_milan: Please জুন 11 15:09:11 we set up an NGO here in Mumbai, college students জুন 11 15:09:29 we have 6 people as the formal committee জুন 11 15:09:36 another 20 as the working committee জুন 11 15:09:41 who have voting rights জুন 11 15:09:53 there's a group of 20 people as active volunteers জুন 11 15:10:01 and the rest are members; probably inactive জুন 11 15:10:30 depending on the performance; people are shifted between the volunteers and the working committee জুন 11 15:10:45 elections every couple of years for the 6 posts জুন 11 15:10:52 only the active members have voting rights জুন 11 15:11:06 that'd be all, thanks জুন 11 15:12:05 floyd_n_milan: That is along the lines of what people were mulling. I personally don't like it. জুন 11 15:12:17 gora, is there any other kinda membership for an Organizational type , for eg Corporate membership. if say Red Hat or NRCFOSS wants to be a part of the society in future ? জুন 11 15:12:28 floyd_n_milan: that sounds good জুন 11 15:12:46 what im still confused about is the relation between the society and the current project জুন 11 15:12:57 * soumyadip thinks there should be option for corporate membership জুন 11 15:13:03 ramkrsna: one could always have an annual "corporate" membership which is a higher amount জুন 11 15:13:04 ramkrsna: well there could be, but i guess going by current model it would be more like individual membership. জুন 11 15:13:11 do we sent an minimum amount, to qualify as Corporate member জুন 11 15:13:13 okey জুন 11 15:13:31 TCS might be interested to join জুন 11 15:13:36 i'd say, charge the corporate members for membership জুন 11 15:13:40 as a corporate member জুন 11 15:13:41 floyd_n_milan: actually thats much of part of the problem! জুন 11 15:13:44 ramkrsna: Depends. Do corporates get voting rights? And, if so, how much of a say? জুন 11 15:14:02 gora, suggestion if i may? জুন 11 15:14:15 floyd_n_milan: a default solution being keep them separate, ie the society has a different name (than IndLinux) জুন 11 15:14:34 gora, i guess we put it in the fsf way, a representative of the corporate ( representing the corp) gets an individual right জুন 11 15:14:50 gora: can we have representatives from the corporate sponsors as advisors without voting rights ? জুন 11 15:15:04 let's just say a corporate could have n voting rights, where n >= 0 জুন 11 15:15:15 heh জুন 11 15:15:18 gora, our NGO doesn't want to affiliate with any political party. so people are allowed to be working committee members at the most, if they're part of a political party, but they're not allowed to vote জুন 11 15:15:20 OldMonk: IMHO, n should be 1 জুন 11 15:15:21 a corporate member, that is জুন 11 15:15:25 what do you huys want to make? an NGO or a FICCI? জুন 11 15:15:25 OldMonk: more like n=0 জুন 11 15:15:35 gora: do we need to decide that right now? জুন 11 15:15:47 OldMonk: No, I guess not. জুন 11 15:15:55 so can we move on? জুন 11 15:16:06 we can just give them one vote like any other individual member জুন 11 15:16:21 ramkrsna: give them x votes, it doesn't matter right now জুন 11 15:16:41 guys, a request ... keep it simple, no multi-level memberships, no special voting rules. given enough time, the wheat will separate itself from the chaff. জুন 11 15:16:51 okey. lets move on to the "Role of the member" জুন 11 15:16:58 hold on... জুন 11 15:17:23 are we doing the technical discussions right now or the raison de etre of the society? জুন 11 15:17:44 if the reason for existence, then i agree with gora, we should leave the technical discussions for later জুন 11 15:17:49 one suggestion: instead of 2 year lock-in period, why not define milestones and ntil those milestones achieved let it be run in this autocratic/meritocratic manner জুন 11 15:17:51 OldMonk: Still stuck on society formation. জুন 11 15:18:02 One solution - keep the basic membership fee a bit high, so that takeover attempts are possible, but expensive. জুন 11 15:18:20 linuxlingam: yes.. thats the idea (i am vetting for) জুন 11 15:18:54 karunakar: so let's define milestones and state this is the lockinperiod, but until milestones achieved don't rock the boat... জুন 11 15:18:55 HereBeDragon: not a good idea, all i means is that MS can buy out IndLinux but ILUGD can't জুন 11 15:19:05 er, all it means... জুন 11 15:19:07 OldMonk: well put. :D জুন 11 15:19:20 HereBeDragon: could you reveal ur identity please..(all others too under cloaks) জুন 11 15:19:32 karunakar: Prashant Verma জুন 11 15:19:53 baks17 [i=3d5fe252@gnu-india/supporter/barkha ] ov=00 away=0 lt=0 জুন 11 15:19:53 BigBeard [n=BigBeard@122.162.91.11 ] ov=00 away=0 lt=268 জুন 11 15:19:53 CIA-22 [n=CIA@208.69.182.149 ] ov=00 away=0 lt=0 জুন 11 15:19:53 dreamil [n=swapnil@freemap.in ] ov=00 away=0 lt=0 জুন 11 15:19:53 floyd_n_milan [n=mrugesh@unaffiliated/floydnmilan/x-000001] ov=00 away=1 lt=275 জুন 11 15:19:53 gora [n=gora@59.176.103.149 ] ov=00 away=0 lt=122 জুন 11 15:19:53 grub [n=grub@last.fm/user/grub ] ov=00 away=0 lt=3283 জুন 11 15:19:53 gupteshwar [n=pcmc@203.129.227.15 ] ov=00 away=0 lt=0 জুন 11 15:19:53 HereBeDragon [n=puser@59.93.217.88 ] ov=00 away=0 lt=21 জুন 11 15:19:53 jaldhar [n=jaldhar@c-24-0-153-89.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] ov=00 away=0 lt=0 জুন 11 15:19:53 jassy [i=jassy_@nat/redhat-in/x-8b644c0b5ea69fd5] ov=00 away=0 lt=0 জুন 11 15:19:53 kart_ [n=kart_@202.141.96.29 ] ov=00 away=0 lt=4004 জুন 11 15:19:53 karunakar [n=karunaka@59.176.103.149 ] ov=00 away=0 lt=33 জুন 11 15:19:53 lap64 [i=Lap_64@gateway/tor/x-8141667d6392196e] ov=00 away=0 lt=0 জুন 11 15:19:53 linuxlingam [n=niyam@122.162.143.27 ] ov=00 away=1 lt=59 জুন 11 15:19:53 mishti [i=runa@nat/redhat-in/x-b00900f2378d978e] ov=00 away=0 lt=0 জুন 11 15:19:53 nags [n=nags@125.16.129.16 ] ov=00 away=0 lt=0 জুন 11 15:19:53 OldMonk [n=raju@59.176.19.42 ] ov=00 away=0 lt=48 জুন 11 15:19:53 pamri [n=pamri@220.227.211.249 ] ov=00 away=0 lt=3279 জুন 11 15:19:53 paras [n=paras@202.79.37.177 ] ov=00 away=0 lt=0 জুন 11 15:19:53 PowerPork [n=power@61.95.147.26 ] ov=00 away=0 lt=0 জুন 11 15:19:53 pritisd [n=priti@cmj-trapc32.ncst.ernet.in ] ov=00 away=0 lt=3240 জুন 11 15:19:53 rahul_b [i=rbhalera@nat/redhat-in/x-5fd82886aafbdb82] ov=00 away=0 lt=0 জুন 11 15:19:53 rajesh [i=rranjan@nat/redhat-in/x-f94f86c9edf97532] ov=00 away=0 lt=0 জুন 11 15:19:53 ramkrsna [i=ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna ] ov=00 away=0 lt=182 জুন 11 15:19:53 ravikant [n=ravikant@59.176.103.149 ] ov=00 away=0 lt=268 জুন 11 15:19:53 sanjay_sha [n=sunj@220.225.228.97 ] ov=00 away=0 lt=0 জুন 11 15:19:53 sankarshan [i=sankarsh@fedora/sankarshan ] ov=00 away=1 lt=0 জুন 11 15:19:53 shekhar [n=shekhar@ip-89-168-19-110.cust.homechoice.net] ov=00 away=0 lt=0 জুন 11 15:19:53 sm|CPU [i=sankarsh@fedora/sankarshan ] ov=00 away=1 lt=4012 জুন 11 15:19:53 soumyadip [i=cb63d436@gateway/web/cgi-irc/ircatwork.com/x-43a7646a944c514d] ov=00 away=0 lt=303 জুন 11 15:19:53 subhransu [i=subhrans@nat/redhat-in/x-785a73b1befcdeaa] ov=00 away=0 lt=0 জুন 11 15:19:53 sunilmohan [n=sunilmoh@swecha/sunilmohan ] ov=00 away=0 lt=373 জুন 11 15:19:53 tusharm [n=tushar@203.129.255.178 ] ov=00 away=0 lt=0 জুন 11 15:19:58 Move on to "role of member"? What else, besides voting? জুন 11 15:20:47 gora: has/should participate in one of the activities in a workplan জুন 11 15:21:14 karunakar: Do you mean that as a requirement to be a member? জুন 11 15:21:24 karunakar: hi জুন 11 15:21:28 gora, karunakar how would u relate Indlinux As a project & Indlinux (or the other) as a society? জুন 11 15:21:38 pritisd, ++ জুন 11 15:22:06 pritisd: The project is the society, but the society can eventually (but not for several years) go beyond. জুন 11 15:22:16 gora: no, its to say that the member should contribute in someactivity... dont want fence sitters, shouting their way out! জুন 11 15:22:34 All: Please stick to the immediate topic জুন 11 15:23:03 karunakar: Cool. But, then it is just advisory for the most part, as I can sign up, and do nothing. জুন 11 15:23:17 ### Role of the member ### জুন 11 15:23:19 has/should participate in one of the activities in a workplan জুন 11 15:25:06 ramkrsna, in what way & do it need physical presence in the premises? জুন 11 15:25:16 pritisd: well, my personal opinion was that while IndLinux project is there, there would be a small entity (the Indlinux society), which acts like legal arm. so ideally wouldnt want it to outgrow the project, and the members be the people contributing to the project. জুন 11 15:25:49 like KDE and KDE e.V.? জুন 11 15:26:07 what is being discussed now is more in line with the past discussions of forming a Indic Computing Consortium. জুন 11 15:26:08 karunakar: in that case you need some formal, exclusionary process for granting membership জুন 11 15:26:13 pritisd, no physical presence is needed unless the society call for a meeting in person জুন 11 15:27:13 ramkrsna, afaik, a physical presence needs to be mentioned when registering জুন 11 15:27:18 karunakar, sounds sane জুন 11 15:27:19 20:57:24 জুন 11 15:27:19 karunakar: a society's aims and objectives will always be wider than those of a project. you need to keep it flexible জুন 11 15:27:27 since the ICC (abrv of above) took long to conceptualize &got riddled in discussion roadblocks - as to structure, model etc.. it didnt go ahead. জুন 11 15:28:03 the IndLinux society idea was kind of fall of it, with less bells &whistles( &less of timewasting on endless discussions) জুন 11 15:28:43 karunakar: Hmm, your objectives in that document do not at all say that. জুন 11 15:28:57 may i suggest something? জুন 11 15:28:59 gora: state what ?a consortium? জুন 11 15:29:36 let's give this 2 weeks on a mailing list with 2 more IRC discussions, and let karunakar decide the final form and objectives of the society after that. জুন 11 15:29:55 * pritisd has to rush for "The Code Linux" show, looking forward to get MOM (Minutes of Meeting) on mailing list :) জুন 11 15:30:10 whoever is in line (agrees with) that form and those objectives can choose to join the nascent society at that stage. জুন 11 15:30:21 whoever isn't, can choose to include him/herself out জুন 11 15:30:25 does that make sense? জুন 11 15:30:52 well let me make one more point.. why IndLinux as society came up.. জুন 11 15:31:51 earlier it was Indic computing consortium discussions.. they were going nowhere &we were not getting a financial commitment (some 1lakh) that was required.. then ppl started losing interest.. জুন 11 15:32:22 so the idea then was to just have a society, which could operate with a smaller scale &be more focussed. জুন 11 15:33:05 is the current project `registered' in any way? জুন 11 15:33:26 a state level society (liek LUG - ilud) was the easiest, but it was thought better still have it as a national level one ( so the MoA & the signatures that happened ) জুন 11 15:33:57 sorry; i thought you were done.. জুন 11 15:34:56 &since there wasnt much of workplan for society (& no funds), it was more like take the registration step.. then once formed more could be decided on functioning, organization etc. জুন 11 15:34:58 karunakar: i would say start small and let others join later জুন 11 15:35:23 in my opinion, last discussions on this went on endlessly because there were too many things thought জুন 11 15:35:50 and so discussed জুন 11 15:35:59 if there isnt much activity, the soceity just forms a legal arm of the project, helps it to generate some funds of it on own, or allows to accept any funds that come by. জুন 11 15:36:11 OK, we are digressing again. জুন 11 15:36:50 I think that OldMonk's point is right. The thinking behind this needs to be clarified further, which is best done in a mailing list, and future meetings. জুন 11 15:36:57 as per the name - IndLinux was chosen ,more since it could then claim the existence over a longer period of time & the project also has a stake in it. জুন 11 15:37:40 else it could have been Indic Computing as well.. জুন 11 15:39:02 hmmm let us set some deadline though জুন 11 15:39:07 or the discussion will be endless জুন 11 15:39:28 meet next monday and the monday after that, and ONLY discuss points that have been brought up on the mailing list beforehand জুন 11 15:41:57 structured agenda, with Mr. Moderator! জুন 11 15:42:07 yes জুন 11 15:42:29 cool জুন 11 15:42:50 if everyone is agreeable... জুন 11 15:43:39 let me rephrase... if anyone is here... জুন 11 15:44:25 So, where are we? জুন 11 15:44:39 still here জুন 11 15:44:49 15:38 floyd_n_milan> hmmm let us set some deadline though জুন 11 15:44:49 15:39 floyd_n_milan> or the discussion will be endless জুন 11 15:44:49 15:39 OldMonk> meet next monday and the monday after that, and ONLY discuss points that have been brought up on the mailing list beforehand জুন 11 15:44:52 15:41 BigBeard> structured agenda, with Mr. Moderator! জুন 11 15:44:55 15:42 OldMonk> yes জুন 11 15:44:57 15:42 floyd_n_milan> cool জুন 11 15:45:00 15:42 OldMonk> if everyone is agreeable... জুন 11 15:45:19 OldMonk: OK. Is that agreed upon. জুন 11 15:45:28 no idea, everyone's fallen silent জুন 11 15:45:32 oh great! জুন 11 15:45:37 hmm.. জুন 11 15:45:38 karunakar: Are you doing the mailing. জুন 11 15:45:43 what was the last message? জুন 11 15:45:45 * OldMonk smacks gora_ and karunakarg about জুন 11 15:45:51 is there a separate mailing list? জুন 11 15:45:51 15:38 floyd_n_milan> hmmm let us set some deadline though জুন 11 15:45:51 15:39 floyd_n_milan> or the discussion will be endless জুন 11 15:45:51 15:39 OldMonk> meet next monday and the monday after that, and ONLY discuss points that have been brought up on the mailing list beforehand জুন 11 15:45:52 what have we agreed upon today ? apart from meeting next monday and creating an indlinux society ? জুন 11 15:45:54 15:41 BigBeard> structured agenda, with Mr. Moderator! জুন 11 15:45:55 what mailing? জুন 11 15:45:57 15:42 OldMonk> yes জুন 11 15:45:57 OldMonk: its the network! জুন 11 15:45:57 OldMonk: We lost connection. Might have been a split. জুন 11 15:45:59 15:42 floyd_n_milan> cool জুন 11 15:46:02 15:42 OldMonk> if everyone is agreeable... জুন 11 15:46:26 Sounds good to me. Who is mailing indlinux-group? karunakar? জুন 11 15:46:37 please define roles right now: জুন 11 15:46:44 1. posting minutes of this meeting জুন 11 15:46:49 OldMonk, gora_ : get ur papers ready.. so that i can put in the application.. rest can be discussed on ongoing basis জুন 11 15:47:00 2. summarising mailing list discussion and posting to the list. জুন 11 15:47:03 OldMonk: Erk. No minutes. sm|CPU will post raw logs জুন 11 15:47:08 3. moderating the next discussion জুন 11 15:47:13 gora_: ok জুন 11 15:47:37 karunakarg: are you ok with this plan? জুন 11 15:47:57 OldMonk: i am saying let the application go জুন 11 15:48:02 karunakarg: Er? Why did we have this discussion, then? It looks even your ideas are not clear, and I am not willing to be part of a society without knowing why we are doing it. জুন 11 15:48:21 gora_: you agreed at some time, what's changed since then? জুন 11 15:48:47 karunakar: i agree, we should not have a re-run of the indic computing consortium জুন 11 15:49:00 OldMonk: It is still not clear to me what is the society going to do. karunakar just changed his mind at the end of the discussion. জুন 11 15:49:07 gora_: well.. are we discussing a new plan or going by the old one? MoA has been sitting there for 1.5yrs.. জুন 11 15:49:17 Is the society the IndLinux project, or broader? জুন 11 15:49:39 gora_: it starts from the project &gets broader slowly.. জুন 11 15:49:45 IMHO the society should be broader জুন 11 15:49:50 karunakar: Well, if you want to change it, I have no issues. All the more reason not to put in the application now. জুন 11 15:50:22 i have nothing to change in the MoA.. জুন 11 15:51:00 darn! this is gonna further delay it জুন 11 15:54:00 better delay now than to repent later জুন 11 15:54:16 BigBeard, what more must be added to the MoA to make it more broader ? জুন 11 15:55:01 hmm, what did i miss? জুন 11 15:55:02 _All_ feel free to add stuff to the MoA, ( with a login suggested ) on the wiki জুন 11 15:55:13 ramkrsna: please don't do that জুন 11 15:55:30 ramkrsna: it'll be hell sorting things out later জুন 11 15:55:30 Damn network. জুন 11 15:55:36 Here are my last few points. জুন 11 15:55:49 OldMonk, okey জুন 11 15:56:10 PASTE>> i have nothing to change in the MoA.. জুন 11 15:56:18 * ramkrsna too জুন 11 15:56:19 PASTE>> karunakarg: Didn't you just say that you wanted the society to be only the project, just before the network went down? জুন 11 15:56:30 PASTE>> karunakarg: With the MoA as it stands, there is nothing one can do to stop the society diverging from the project. জুন 11 15:56:41 PASTE>> It barely talks about the existing project. জুন 11 15:56:45 i'd say, better discuss it on the list and only gora, karunakar etc change the wiki জুন 11 15:57:33 floyd_n_milan: I do not currently have the time to do much beyond participating in email/IRC. জুন 11 15:57:39 hmmm জুন 11 15:57:44 thats becoz it was much of the text was.. from MoA of indic computing consortium.. জুন 11 15:58:00 * karunakarOFFICE is now known as karunakar জুন 11 15:58:04 floyd_n_milan: Well, I am not really that interested any more in forming a society. জুন 11 15:58:19 i think the society has its useage জুন 11 15:58:24 i have some thoughts জুন 11 15:58:34 but i am still not clear upon the current project জুন 11 15:58:42 and where exactly it stands জুন 11 15:59:11 karunakar: Well, then, do you want to change the MoA, or not? জুন 11 15:59:26 gora: if you aren't interested, then does it matetr what form the society takes? জুন 11 15:59:32 floyd_n_milan: You can ask, but probably this is best addressed on a mailing list. জুন 11 15:59:51 gora, ok জুন 11 16:00:12 ALL: the point i am making is getting Indic computing forward should be the primary activity of the society.. & for the initial phase it not be entangled in organizational issues. জুন 11 16:00:37 gora: I am ok with the MoA জুন 11 16:00:48 OldMonk_: Not to me, no, not at the moment. If we instead work on putting together a functional structure, the society formation can happen later. This is putting the cart before the horse, IMHO. জুন 11 16:00:59 & Isay that while rest discussions happen, better put the application in for registration.. জুন 11 16:01:13 karunakar: Great. Is everyone else agreeable to this? জুন 11 16:01:30 I.e., registering the society with the MoA as it stands. জুন 11 16:01:39 fine with me জুন 11 16:01:40 so the decision is to register as it stands? জুন 11 16:01:46 fine, i'm agreed জুন 11 16:01:55 karunakar: Huh? What does that mean? The application includes an MoA. জুন 11 16:02:02 floyd_n_milan: technically the project is going sluggish.. জুন 11 16:02:11 karunakar: Re: " Isay that while rest discussions happen, better put the application in for registration.." জুন 11 16:04:03 ok.. to put it this way - if no decision is arrived by 25th June.. then either the current MoA &application goes in or.. it gets abandoned (the current application ie.) জুন 11 16:04:26 karunakar: please don't put more delays now, just put it in as it is জুন 11 16:04:49 karunakar: OK, I am happy with things going in with the current MoA. For any changes, I reserve the right to withdraw my commitment. জুন 11 16:04:53 the changes can be discussed while the application is being processed, and ratified at the first GBM জুন 11 16:05:18 that is to say.. that all are fine with the MoA or make suggestions by then..(and add any extra stuff needed on organization part). জুন 11 16:05:40 OldMonk_: OK, maybe. But, I would prefer a definite agreement beforehand. After the society is formed, it is too late to baxk out. জুন 11 16:05:59 karunakar: since everyone has agreed to the current MoA, why do you want to call for more changes? জুন 11 16:06:06 gora: it's never too late to back out জুন 11 16:06:30 I think you have enough to go ahead with society formation জুন 11 16:06:35 OldMonk: if any organizational points to be put in, then they need to go in now. জুন 11 16:06:39 OldMonk_: No? I thought that as a founder, one always had some legal requirements to meet. জুন 11 16:06:43 karunakar: not necessarily জুন 11 16:06:46 gora: no জুন 11 16:06:54 once thats done, we can do the necessary changes to prevent take-over and decide complete structure জুন 11 16:06:58 if you resign, your responsibility ends there জুন 11 16:07:06 OldMonk_: Oh, in that case, I am OK with your proposal. জুন 11 16:07:16 OldMonk_: Resign as a member? জুন 11 16:07:29 gora: yes, a founder member is just a member জুন 11 16:07:43 OldMonk_: Kewl. জুন 11 16:08:43 So, one more time. Are we proceeding with the registration, with the MoA as it stands today? জুন 11 16:08:50 * OldMonk_ is now known as OldMonk জুন 11 16:08:53 Yes জুন 11 16:09:00 +1 জুন 11 16:09:09 +1 জুন 11 16:09:35 if we're decided, may i go and have my breakfast now? জুন 11 16:09:42 Any objections? Speak up now. জুন 11 16:09:49 OldMonk: breakfast? জুন 11 16:09:56 OK, I am done, too. জুন 11 16:10:03 ####### END #########